have reached out to is we're not commenting until we know they're safe, and that's because that speaks to how delicate this mission is. it is unusual to send a former president of the united states to north korea. we haven't had a former president there since 1994. jimmy carter went there. he also, bill clinton, happens to be married to the current secretary of state. this is very delicate at a time when u.s./north korean relations are in a bad spot right now, and they wanted to decouple that stuff over the nuclear issues that are still at issue with the humanitarian issue. so that's one part of this. i think that's why there's so much delicacy involved in this and a reluctance by the white house and other national security officials to comment on this at this stage. i think what they want is bill clinton to be up -- wheels up in that airplane from north korea with those two journalists in that plane and then we'll start hearing the whole story behind this. tamron, i think it's already interesting, i pointed this out to you and david, the critics are ld coming out saying we have allowed bill clinton to be used as a propaganda tool.

john boulton, of course, who was the hardliner in the bush administration, saying that we are rewarding essentially north korea's bad behavior, and pointing out that bill clinton was met on the ground there when he got off the plane there with the lead north korean negotiator when it comes to these nuclear arms negotiations. so you're doing to hear the critics talking about what went on there. >> anothnorah, we are talking a whether you might have the story line tomorrow is bill clinton upstaging secretary of state clinton. a lot of people got a little upset with us on twitter saying we're making up story lines, but you have incredible dynamics. it's not every day in this country where you have a secretary of state who is powerful who is a clinton and her husband is a former president able to go into north korea and secure the release and meet face-to-face with kim jong-il. there are so many dynamics at

play, and it is all a part of an incredible conversation. >> this is probably the most reclusive and most dangerous country in the entire world, north korea, and that's why this is so sensitive. and that's why this is so significant. we don't negotiate with terrorists. we don't usually let ourselves be used as a propaganda tool. those that are critics of the administration are going to say that. that's why the white house is saying this is a solely private mission. that this is a humanitarian mission. that the family asked bill clinton to go. that's why he agreed to go, and that they want to decouple these issues of the humanitarian issue and the nuclear negotiations. so that's why i think it's particularly sensitive, but you can bet there's a lot of story lines that are going to come out of this, not only because it's an interesting story about these two women and what they learned when they were in north korea, but it involves the clintons. right? it involves the most famous and interesting marriage in america.

>> norah, you have been covering the clintons for a long time. i wonder what you can sort -- the picture you paint when you imagine bill clinton marching into the white house or over to langley to debrief the cia or the nsa about what's going on in pyongyang these days with him being the best witness to it. >> reporter: no doubt. this is something clearly the top level of government knew that bill clinton was doing. that was one of the questions, did hillary know her husband was going on this trip, ha, ha, ha. does it undermine her authority? does it make her more powerful because she has bill clinton in her back pocket and can use him on these diplomatic missions? that's going to definitely be the story line. but i think, david, to answer your question, what is significant that some of the right are criticizing that bill clinton is allowing him and the u.s. to use him as a propaganda tool, but i wonder if there's some intelligence that bill clinton can also bring back. if he is meeting with kim jong-il who has supposedly been

ill, whether he can deliver some information about the types of things they tried to engage the u.s. on and whether that's helpful to our interests in some way. i think that's part of the story line, too. >> all right, norah. >> senior washington correspondent norah o'donnell. we were talking about this earlier. two major issues, the legacy of bill clinton and how this affects it, but also this whole sort of image of bill clinton being the best person in the united states right now to tell the senior reaches of our government what appears to be going on in pyongyang. >> again, to stress that it is a wonderful story that this mother, one of the journalists is a mother. the other obviously loved by her family, that they will be home safe. but this story, it would be minimizing it to believe that it stops with the release of these journalists when you, again, have one of the most popular presidents there in north korea, a very dangerous country, and that's a part of the story line as well, david. >> absolutely.

and, of course, then there's, of course, the second and third day stories about intrigue that washington loves to get involved. somebody who knows very well about all of that is retired army general barry mccaffrey who joins us on the phone. general mccaffrey, first of all on the legacy of bill clinton, why don't you take a stab at that? what does this do to bill clinton's legacy in your mind? >> there's no question in my mind he's one of the most effective people we ever had in higher office. he's incredible skilled diplomat. he has great world standing. the fact that he delivered two journalists that probably illegally entered north korea is good news for the family and it's just a comment on his credibility. but, david, i tell you put me down as a skeptic. president obama just said a few weeks ago about north korea, we are not intending to continue a policy of rewarding provocation, so what we've got is the north koreans in almost an act of state terrorism seize two

private citizens, put them on trial, locked them up, and they've been for 16 years and two presidents trying to get us to negotiate directly with them. we just sent the president of the united states, obviously a semi official emissary, to deal with just the regime that we said we wouldn't deal with. >> but doesn't, general mckaf fi, i will take some issue with you, doesn't the benefit outweigh the risk in the sense -- he's an ex-president, not part of the official government. the obama administration can easily make the case this wasn't us. the president was doing this on his own. secretary of state clinton had very harsh words herself for the regime. you can see how there's a decoupling the obama administration can accomplish and at the same time the information that the u.s. government gets from bill clinton could be invaluable in terms of our negotiating posture in the future with north korea. >> i wouldn't agree at all. i doubt that president clinton

saw anything they hadn't carefully thought through. he's dealing with their north korean nuclear arms negotiator who we talk to all the time in the six-power talks. their purpose was to get bilateral direct contact. they just did that. so i mean it's good news we got the two journalists back, but it's highly unlikely that this has advanced our ability to roll back their nuclear program. >> what about the direct information on a kim jong-il, what his health is, the kind of things he said to bill clinton through the translator. isn't that valuable? >> yeah, but we could have done that with governor bill richardson who is an experienced expert. we could have done that with a lot of emissaries, not the former president of the united states who is married to the secretary of state. this was essentially an official recognition of this regime, one of the largest armies on the face of the earth. they export missiles, illegal drugs, and counterfeit

cigarettes, and they've got somewhere between three and eight nuclear weapons, and they've scared the hell out of everybody in their region while they murdered 1 million of their own people. so, again, i'm just skeptical that this was a good move. i'm dubious about it. >> well, general mccaffrey, we appreciate your skepticism, even if we disagree, and we all hope that your skepticism is misplaced and things are going to turn around. but the skeptical voices are, of course, very important in this discussion. thank you for coming on. tamron, i think we just sort of got a preview maybe of the debate we're going to see over the next couple days once the joy wears off and the families are reunited. there's a very stark political debate that will emerge. >> that's why this is "the big picture." still ahead, more on the breaking news of the release of those two american journalists. but we can't forget one thing. it is the president's birthday. >> that's right. and it's stoking the fire behind

the fringe right wing birthers. so who are these people who just won't believe the facts? details ahead. and the former russian president exposed? vladimir putin's latest move getting a lot of attention. you can probably guess why when you look at that picture. and a republican senator in the middle of a sex scandal. new e-mails just released may tell who knew what and when when it comes to republican senator ensign. big news on "the big picture" ahead on msnbc. if you're taking 8 extra-strength tylenol... a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthris pain all day.

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this is a special day at the

white house. it's president obama's 48th birthday. >> and, david, we just got our hands on a photo from the white house of the president's birthday cake. that's very nice. take a look. >> a lot of blue. >> a lot of something. a lot of icing. it's complete with the presidential seal. it looks pretty tasty. that was rigged for me but i agree it was tasty. president obama shared the celebration today. he made a surprise appearance in the white house briefing room with a plate of cupcakes and candles and led the press corps in singing happy birthday to this lovely lady, legendary journalist helen thomas. she turned 89 years old today. still working. she's regarded as the dean of the washington press corps and is currently a columnist for the hurst. he sat with her for a birthday photo. >> helen wishes for world peace, but she and i also had a common birthday wish. she said she hopes for a real

health care reform bill. >> after the brief celebration, president quickly departed ignoring reporter's questions at that little impromptu birthday for helen thomas. tamron there is a small group of conservatives who are nearly obsessed with the president's birthday. the birthers argue that today, august 4th, 1961, is proof that president obama is not qualified to be president because they claim he's not born in the united states. harry reid said today this is all a bunch of nonsense. >> it's a phony issue. it does not deserve even a minute of our attention on the floor of the united states senate. it's absurd, irresponsible, baseless, and a false claim that has long ago been refuted. >> who are these so-called birthers? let's start with orly taitz.

she's gone so far as to say that the president should be tried for crimes perpetrated upon american citizens. there's also allen keys, a former presideform former presidential candidate. phillip berg filed a birther lawsuit against president obama. the case was dismissed. berg also sued then president george w. bush claiming he was complicity in the 9/11 terror attacks. there's also a man by the name of andy martin, said to be one of the first people to claim that president obama was secretly a muslim. radio pastor wyle drake reportedly brought orly taitz into the movement. also the conservative news webside world net daily. the birth movement has been gaining traction online, especially along some

conservative bloggers. according to google it's a mostly southern thing. here are the top ten straights. louisiana, mississippi, colorado, oklahoma, alabama, tennessee, arkansas, missouri, south carolina and north carolina. notice a trend? people are also certainly interested in what orly taitz told us yesterday. more than 8,000 people, 8,000 people commented on this interview on "the huffington post." here is a clip. >> obama is completely illegitimate for u.s. president for two reasons. not only because he did not provide the place of his birth, but also because both parents have to be u.s. citizens. his father was never u.s. citizen. he was in the united states on a student visa. >> well, tamron, the birthers -- you take it away. >> every time i see the interview i guess it still leaves you speechless. the birthers are not the first conspiracy theorists in

washington, d.c. they will not be the last. according to the christian science monitor in the 1900s it was rumored the masons were a satanic cult. now with the internet some of these conspiracy theories are certainly thriving and taking on a whole new life of benjamin starlin is a political reporter for the daile daily beast.com. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> let me ask you, we were talking about this, so many people reacted to orly. it's not just about this movement. we've seen things like this in the past. after 9/11 you had allegations that the bush administration had ties to osama bin laden and that some of the buildings were deliberately taken down. what makes this, i guess, such a hot topic and people want to react to these birthers in a way we haven't seen recently with other conspiracies out there? >> unlike 9/11, truth to some

degree, that whole movement. >> the truthers ertruthers. >> the truthers. birthers are part of a long movement that goes back to the black helicopter movement under clinton. timothy mcveigh believed that. it goes way back to the mccarthy days, seeing a communist agent behind every tree. that dwight eisenhower was a come mist agent. it goes further back even to the days of george washington and john adams and thomas jefferson where people were saying they were all sorts of conspiracies -- >> but are they more powerful now because of the internet and in one second you can get millions of people reacting to or thinking their information is accurate? >> certainly the internet helps spread these things quickly through e-mail chains during the campaign we saw was a major way to spread all sorts of disinformation about candidates. but the internet can also be extremely using in debunking it. anybody who searches obama birth

certificate will also turn up obama's own site, fight the smears. >> how does the birth movement continue? >> decouple this entirely from facts. this has nothing to do with facts. this is about a certain mindset. on the far right we've seen it for decades and decades. you can see it for example on the paranoid style in american politics by historian richard hoffstetter. he was talking about the john birch society and communist conspiracy theories. there's a treasonous plot in the white house to undermine our national security. the old competitive capitalism has been destroyed by socialism. this is the language you hear today. it's identical. you heard it from orly taitz yesterday. she was talking about russia and bringing up nazi germany. this is much, much farther than that. >> benjamin, how much of this is generated by people who know the

truth is that barack obama was born in hawaii but they simply just want to cause trouble because they're racist and they don't like the fact that we now have an african-american as president and they simply want to cause trouble? >> well, i can't look into the hearts of birthers of course and tell you who believes this and who is cynically exploiting this, but there's no doubt you looked at the demographics of this where 60% or 70% of southern whites believe this birth certificate stuff, it's clear race is playing a huge fa factor. >> eugene robinson wrote in part, i hope they're harmless. i hope they seek help. is there any indication this is more than loud, emotional help? that they are just that harmless and misguided if that's the description? >> we've had many conspiracy theories over the years without people necessarily acting, even widely held beliefs. the 9/11 truth conspiracy was

believed by huge segments of the population that apparently seemed to be okay with it. okay president bush destroyed the twin towers, all right. nobody seemed to really do anything about it. i think it's at least ponl thss that this will just be an annoyance in the background. >> fascinating. it is great to talk to you. thank you very much. thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> a lot of reaction to that interview with orly and we're going to continue to stay on top of it. the breaking news we're following for you. former president bill clinton secures the release of two american journalists who were jailed in north korea, sentenced to 11 years in a labor camp. many, obviously, everyone, including their family, the reaction, people are cheering around the world about the release of these young women. first vladimir putin lost his shirt. details on why. that's ahead on msnbc. you're watching the big picture. to stay in tune with life after 50,

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there are a lot of things that could be considered news in this world. >> but, david shuster, there are only a few story that is make us say -- >> no way! >> no way! >> we're back to the original. bravo. tamron, you remember we talked about finland yesterday. we have another episode on testing the strength of your relationship. latvia's annual wife carrying contest. 55 couples took place this year and, of course, it's all in technique. some men carried their partner by piggyback, others used the fireman's old and some upside down. they had to carry the women up a

hill. the couple with the best time won a trick to stockholm, sweden. >> that would be a great way to figure out how to marry someone. >> maybe we can have the finnish champian a iaia iaion and the l champion face-off. they're more familiar with snoop dogg and aerosmith, but geffen records has a new unlikely audience. that would be the pope. they say they will release a cd featuring pope benedict's voice synced with the royal philharmonic orchestra. >> it was incredible to see and very privileged to be allowed in to hearing that, and as we listened to the choir, we

started to notice there was another voice that was coming through which is obviously pope benedict, and it became apparent this could be a really remarkable record. >> the cd featuring the pope is due out november 30th. profits will go toward helping under privileged children and a great christmas gift. >> if the pope can carry a tune, terrific. as for putin, he's on your mind i know, tamron, it's not easy being vladimir putin. when he was president his schedule was packed with jailing oil tycoons and crushing his country's independent media. now he has time for a vacation in siberia. he joined some buddies for a camping trip in the siberian mountains. no "brokeback mountain" jokes there. being a former kgb agent he stayed in shape and once again has turned up shirtless. even took a dip in a frigid river. but this isn't all r and r.

he had an action packed fuel days. >> looks like michael phelps there. >> he tried his hand at blacksmithing. earlier in the day he was spotted feeding whales. the day before that he explored the dark secrets of the world's deepest like from inside a mini submarine. last year russian media claimed he saved a media crew from a tiger that had escaped from its pen. >> russian rambo. that's what it sounds like, d n doesn't it? >> we're already getting requests not to show the shirtless putin again. >> why? he doesn't look bad. i'm just saying he's a fit guy regardless of, you know -- >> i like his hair cut. >> i don't think he has a choice. all right, tamron. when we come back on "the big picture," the two u.s. journalists jailed in north

korea will soon be heading home. >> a big celebration obviously in store for those families. and also what it could mean for former president bill clinton's legacy. he, of course, is in north korea with them. plus, new details today about nevada senator john ensign's affair. turns out not everyone was shocked when he made the announcement about being unfaithful. and republicans gone wild. from town hall meetings to rallies. is this just pure hatred or do they have a valid argument and method? we'll be right back on msnbc. gecko vo: geico's the third-largest

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i'm mike huckman with your cnbc market wrap. stocks posting gains on wall street today. the dow picking up 33 points. the s&p adding 3 points and the nasdaq gaining about 2 points. oil prices dipping today, but still settling above 71 bucks a barrel and well above where levels were just last month. this comes as a string of

economic reports sparked optimism about the global economy. one of those economic reports is focused on the housing market which is showing some signs of recovery now. the national association of realtors says pending home sales increased in june for a fifth straight month. pending home sales rose 3.6% to 94.6. general motors has restarted its leasing program this time on a smaller scale. now gm says the leases will initially be offered on select 2009 and 2010 models. the program is expected to run through august. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. >> welcome back, i'm tamron hall live in new york. >> and i'm david shuster live in washington. >> david, we're following the big breaking news out of north korea where the two american journalists will be freed after the pardon from north korea. they had been sentenced to 11 years in a labor camp.

we're waiting for the white house to issue a statement. this after former president clinton made a visit on the ground, face to face, with leader kim jong-il securing we're told the release of these american journalists. a lot of details still right now not being released by the white house who earlier described this as a private visit, solely private, by the former president, and again we're told by norah o'donnell the details have been guarded until they are in the air safely back here in the united states. >> and, tamron, in the big picture at this hour there is some more news on the scandal front involving congress. just how much did key republican party officials know about senator john ensign's extramarital affair with a staffer and when did those officials know it? ensign, of course, went public with the affair in june, but the las vegas sun newspaper has been uncovering e-mails which appear to prove that ensign and at least two of his aides plus the husband of the his mistress knew about it almost a full year

earlier, and that raises the question just how much more of this can the republican party take before senator ensign is essentially forced to resign by members of his own party? >> david, in the bigger picture, the shocking e-mail between top political aides to ensign and doug hampton, husband of ensign's mistress and staff member cindy hampton. mike and lindsay were working for ensign when he was chairman of the national republican senatorial committee. mike claimed he knew nothing about the affair until june 16th of this year. but take a look at this e-mail from july of 2008 from cindy's sunday doug to him. it says the one conclusion we have to come to is that when john finally admitted to having feelings for cindy that started over a year ago and then acted on them last december, the relationship was forever changed. to explain what this means, jon ralston, columnist for "the las vegas sun." thanks for joining us. >> my pleasure.

>> where does it stand right now? obviously a lot of details about when it started, who knew what, when. what role would it play for any re-election bid by ensign? >> i find it hard to believe that john ensign is going to actually run for re-election in 2012. as you know, he's announced he's going to, which was probably the only thing he could say, but it doesn't really mean anything right now. but this is certainly very damaging for all the reasons that you suggest. mike slanker, who is the top political guy at the republican senatorial committee last year, and his wife, lindsay slanker, who was the top money person at the nrsc, clearly knew about this in early 2008, shortly after the affair began, and they clearly knew about it when doug hampton went to work for them in may of 2008. so what does this look like now? it looks like to some like a cover-up had ensued. it looks to some like john ensign was willing to use his top political aides at the

republican senatorial committee to try to appease the husband of the wife he was sleeping with. it's all tawdry and ugly. i can assure you no one in that republican senate caucus is happy this stuff is being talked about. >> are we learning more people knew about the exchange of money, particularly to the mistress' son who ended up working for the senator. he was 18 years old i think at the time. and ultimately also that large sum of money from ensign's parents to the mistress. >> i'm not sure how significant brandon hampton's internship was. i think it complicates and muddies the picture of all this and under lies the seaminess of it. i think there are still many outstanding questions about the payment, none of which john ensign is willing to answer. i guess why should anyone believe his explanation of it that it was a gift from his parents to the hamptons and

their children? it makes absolutely no sense. especially since for some reason one of the three children was left out of the quote, unquote gifts. i think a lot of people will say the explanation that it was severance makes a lot more sense. >> thank you very much for the latest on this. obviously, we'll keep you on here and keep the information coming. thank you very much. and tamron, one of the things that's so fascinating about this, you notice the incredible silence. nobody is coming out -- not nobody, but some key officials are not coming out and publicly supporting ensign which gets to the idea that at a certain point he could be in some trouble if he does want to try to move ahead with this run in 2012. >> those are the indications especially when you read some of the local columns or op-eds out of nevada. still ahead, big face-off on the gop plan to disrupt democratic town halls. >> republicans unleashing forces they may not be able to control. we've got some new details. we'll talk about it next.

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welcome back, everyone. republican opposition, david, leading to unruly crowds. we showed video of this shouting down supporters of president obama's efforts as seen in this town hall where senator arlen specter and hale and human services secretary kathleen sebeli sebelius. >> there is a lot of this video and some lawmakers in congress

like democrat tim bishop in new york say town halls may no longer be worth it after he was shouted down. watch. >> i don't want to be shoved into a government-run socialistic health care program. they're shoving it down our throats. >> no, they're not. >> never mind the shouting, there is this image that is making its way around the internet thanks to right wing websites like the drudge report. it depicts president obama as the joker in the role play by the late heath ledger and carries the title socialism. it's reminiscent of the anger and hate that spilled over at the rallies. at least senator mccain tried to put a stop to it during a town hall meeting next october. >> i can't trust obama.

i have read about him, and he's not -- he's an arab. he is not -- >> no, ma'am. >> no? >> no, ma'am. he's a decent family man, citizen, that i just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues. >> that was then, but the screaming stuff now, is it a healthy protest movement or is it the disturbing result of gop operatives and lo lobbyists spending millions to stop health care reform however they can. here is david goodfriend and danny diaz. i want to read a memo that encourages people at these democratic rallies, quote, you need to rock the boat early in the representative's presentation. watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the statements early. the goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and

agenda. danny, how does this tactic help the dialogue we all need over health care reform? >> i think you can look at each of these things independently and disagree with them, but i think it's important to step back and look at it collectively, and the reality is this. there's a lot of discomfort, there's a lot of mistrust, there's a lot of uneasiness about this administration. the policies that they're putting forward -- >> danny, that's absolutely true but do you get dialogue on any of that when you're encouraging people to interrupt law make rs? >> at the end of the day, these are american citizens speaking out. it's fairly remarkable that the white house would just say this is manufactured. i mean, this is -- these are private citizens that are expressing the fact that they totally disagree with the approach that's being taken by this administration. you have to look at this collectively and this is not a good sign for the direction that this administration is taking the country. >> david goodfriend.

>> it's interesting for me to hear danny describe it as private citizens simply expre expressing their views when right here on television you showed the e-mail from the republican leadership asking members of congress be thrown off, be rattled. this is classic republican playbook stuff. it's when you don't have the ideas, you try to get the train off track and disrupt and dislodge and disseminate anything you can to stop a moving train. the problem for the republicans this time around is they are truly in the wilderness. any good politician will tell you you don't win unless you stand for something. if all you do is say, no, no, no i'm against it, you lose. all they have is this negative tear-down politics, and it's just not going to work this time around. you're going to fail again. >> i think the problem is the train is moving backwards and the american people disagree with the level of government intervention, the level of expending, the exploding deficit, the misuse of taxpayer

dollars, the lack of accountability, the lack of transparency. this administration did a great job of telling the american people what they would do, they have done a remarkably bad job of executing on their word. that is what you are seeing. >> the poll numbers you are reading are different from the poll numbers i am reading. the polls show the democrats trust the obama administration with the economy. >> what poll numbers are you reading? there suspect a poll that's been released in the last two weeks that show an upward trend in any way, shape, or form for this administration. >> let me ask you a question, danny. >> upside down on health care. >> let me ask you a question. danny, let me ask you a question. they're falling from the stratospheric level to the majority level. he was in the 70s for approval. now he's in the 50s for approval. the majority of americans, majority, i'm talking about right now, you're talking about trends, i'm talking about right now, the majority of americans still support this administration, this congress, and their attempt to help

americans hurt by the recession. you guys offer nothing. you are offering nothing to the american people. >> your argument is an inside the beltway argument that is disattached from reality. when you go -- >> polls are for everybody. those are american polls. >> the american people are expressing their displeasure with this administration. you see it in new jersey, in virginia, throughout the country, and -- >> what does the majority say? >> they continue to focus on what they believe are manufactured anger, but at the end of the day it is manifesting itself in the american people and their uneasiness with this administration. >> is it manifested in a lot of american people or just a few that are willing to follow the talking points? thank you both very much. tamron, what do you think? >> well, david, we just had a poll that actually shows the president's number took a tick up over the last few days with the health care. and also if the arguments i think danny was pointing out, if the train is as you said moving

backwards, why would they send out a memo saying yell, challenge, send out a memo making the points of the other side. that american people are not happy that the obama administration, if that is the argument, is not presenting the facts clearly of what they can do to reform health care. make your health care bill less and make it better for you. the memo says shake up a room, rock and roll, cause trouble. >> you're so right. it's important to point out the difference, that people can always protest outside and hold signs, but to be disruptive, that takes it to a new level. >> without the intent of getting an answer. up next, why the so-called beer summit is causing another brouhaha. then on "hardball" senator arlen specter left the republican party to avoid a primary batting, but now he's facing one anyway against democratic congressman joe

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a higher degree. a higher purpose.

there's a lot going on today. here are a couple things we thought you should know. >> as president obama celebrates his 48th birthday today, birthers are demanding proof he was born in the united states. the folks at funny or die.com have come up with a parody debunking the birther conspiracy. >> i would like to address some other equally valid concerns

about me. first, am i a vampire? steve, can i have a mirror? now, as you know, vampires have no reflection. here i am, right there. so that is proven. >> vampire, okay. >> the obama impersonator is getting better. a battle is brewing between the american beverage institute and mothers against drunk driving. the issue, i think you can probably guess it, last week's so-called beer summit. abi put out a press release blasting the organization's president. she said her comment that young people tend to mimic the actions of dults wadults was taken out context. we also have some breaking

news, i want to read real quick, governor arnold schwarzenegger issuing a statement applauding the pardon of the california journalists saying that he and his wife maria are happy as are all californians to celebrate the pardon of laura ling and euna lee. >> and tamron, there's also been some criticism. obviously widespread relief the journalists are coming out. joining us now is jamie rubin. thanks for joining us. john boulton, a hardliner in the bush administration, said bill clinton's efforts does exactly what we always try to avoid doing with terrorists. encouraging their bad behavior. your reaction? >> well, i think on a humanitarian level, obviously the families of those journalists freed would disagree with mr. boulton. look, the bush people had a very different view. they didn't want to talk to north korea. they didn't want to do business with north korea, and the result was north korea became a nuclear

weapon state on their watch. they exploded a nuclear weapon. president obama came into office saying he was going to pursue diplomacy where he thinks it could achieve results. this is a perfect way to test the willingness of north korea to change its policies. first and foremost, by getting these two individuals out of jail and back home and, secondly, it may be that north korea has a message for the new president about what it's willing to do in terms of coming in from the cold, from the isolation from the world, and i don't think there's any harm done here. on the contrary, i think that the families of those involved and the journalists are going to see -- offer a lot of thanks to president clinton for being willing to make this trip. >> jamie, our colleague at nbc says his sources are telling him north korea got what they wanted in that they get acknowledgment and they have obviously a popular former president on the

ground there. how does this move forward with what we've seen today? >> first of all, when the journalists are home free, that's the first step forward. secondly, we'll just have to see whether north korea had something to say to bill clinton that will get them away from their nuclear status they gained in the bush administration. >> the senior source says they like being a player, whether it's diplomacy or arms sales. we're seeing this recognition and respect. thank you, jamie, for your insilt ini insig insight. that does it for the big picture. i'm tamron hall. we'll be talking about this obviously tomorrow. >> there's so many layers of intrigue. never mind the relief of the families but also the intrigue in terms of the relationship between the counties, cluplural and the obama white house. we'll be following it all. chris matthews on "hardball" will have a lot more on this story but also a fascinating day in domestic politics, especially in pennsylvania. i'm david shuster.

for tamron hall and all of us at the big picture, hal with chris matthews starts right now. the roar of the crowd. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, health menace. those angry, noisy, shout them down protests at congressional town halls about end

of life issues with some republicans saying that government wants to off old people or at least get them to off themselves than about whether taxpayers will have to pay for someone else's abortion. we'll talk to two senators about the latest front in the political culture war. also, about this cash for clunkers program, which car buyers seem so gung-ho about. also, who is behind those protests at congressional meetings? are they the spontaneous grassroots, anti-government anger or are they what are called astroturf protests? in other words, systematically organized by the far right and backed by the insurance companies? plus, caught the "hardball" primary. all three major candidates for the u.s. senate in pennsylvania next year are going to be here. arlen specter, the incumbent, joe sestak, and republican pat toomey who has outpolled specter in earlier republican polls and now that